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You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post. Congrats to Florian! Rafa will bounce back.
Fernando says no surprise. We do not expect much from the Bull after the Open- same result as last year in shanghai.The Bull is tired.
To those of you (Federinas who are mortified of Rafa taking over as GOAT) who think that the Locker room has found something, i.e, the Djoker playbook - pound the Rafa BH to get the short ball and then open up the FH - you are all sadly mistaken.
We will rest regroup win either paris or barclays and next year The Bull will dominate the tour. I am fernando
Fernando likes to make bold statement. He is Fernando.
Not so fast w/ the GOAT talk.
Whether or not this match "matters" or has baggage is basically all down to how Nadal reacts to it. As Fernando rightly notes, the post-Open season is NOT where Nadal shines, and in fact, he has lost no points here because he matched last year's performance.
So, he (and we) can chalk it up as par for the season and move on, or, he can take it as another worrying loss in a growing string and let it weigh on him. Up to him.
Match that Rafa should've won??? Well I was actually watching the match and Mayer was the superior player from start to finish. Close 1st set, but after holding nerves he finished dominating, he was always going to win this. Match point should be youtube'd, so should some other great rallies. Otherwise, clearly not Nadal's best day, but he player Florian Mayer today, and he was always going to beat this today. So... the man who should have won... WON! :)
Nadal was dissapointing in the second set but ublike that match against Dodig I ouldn't say he should have won it.
In the first set they both played well and Mayer's serve was working great, under a closed roof I might add which made things a bit easier for him. He closes it out in a tie-break, after having an excellent record this season in them.
In the second set Nadal had chances to get to break points and thats where he was dissapointing.
In the end it wasn't a good performance by him on an indoor hard court but thats hardly a shock. Hes reached the final of two hard court masters and a slam final on hard courts this year. Better than most of his seasons.
I don't think he is playing great at the moment and mentally needs some confidence but perhaps he just needs a break and you can never count him out at the world tour finals. The Davis cup may be all he needs at the end of the year to set him up for the AO, which I'm sure from hi comments he already has an eye on.
Rafa's stuggling, but look at the end of the year: Davis cup-Spain wins,
Paris-Nadal can recover there and he's a runner up in London. Federer has one title this year and your bashing on Rafa?.
"We do not expect much from the Bull after the Open"
"We will rest regroup win either paris or barclays"
So pleased to see that winning Paris or barclays (WTF) isn't expecting much:))
I am Federina:) But I should add not in the slightest worried about Rafa taking over as GOAT, just as I do not believe that Roger is GOAT. Because there is no GOAT. For me Roger is MEAT - Most Enjoyable of All Time.
To Rafa fans, bad luck. To Florian's fans, really well done. I haven't seen any of Rafa's matches since the Open, but to me he looks out of sorts, not just tired.
Caroline, love the MEAT comment ! LOL
I'm a huge Rafa fan but I agree he does look out of sorts.
His head isn't screwed on right and Nole did that to him. I think that until he gets a big win over Djokovic he won't have his confidence back.
Oh yeah, where's the tough guy look now, Rafa?
Did not like the bully expression when Mayer was down (and at that point possibly hurt) before the tie-break. Did not see any of that when Mayer delivered the moral victory, remained good sport. Strange from Rafa, competition is getting into his head more and more, better keep his cool. Also, what's with an entire minute between two points? Should've received a warning.
I say Fernando has a federer problem. He sees ¨federinas¨ everywhere!!
@Caroline,
It doesn't surprise me that your a federer fan, givin that you made fun of nadal when he cramped up in one of his press conferences. Also like stated in a previous posts nadal usually doesnt do well after the us open up untill the world tour finals and onward. So his lost today is pretty insignificant.
On a side note any wedding plans soon, and when do u think you'll win your first major title.
Caroline,
Like the creativity with the "MEAT" tag and wholeheartedly agree, but gotta say, I can never bring myself to say "Roger Federer is my MEAT" - That's just too creepy and weird on multiple levels... :)
Caroline: Liked this MEAL phrase
Fernando: Stay cool, a lot more disappoints are coming your way
Myself: Great buddy. Spot on. Let them lick their wounds
MEAT. Love it.
Now, just gotta work out an acronym using TOAST.
Umnn, Totally Outttasight Astounding Super Tennis.
Nah.
Although not a Rafa fan, it's sad to see him being crushed like this after a year like 2010. To all fan bashers, give it up. All tennis players play their heart and souls out there no less so than the top 3 who have booked themselves imortality in the tennis archives through their various accomplishments. Enjoy the tennis and don't slag eachother off.
Fernando gives us hope........
I've always thought MEAT stood for
Most Endangered Arrogant Tennis player
Even on a chilly, rainy Autumn morning in New England, I enjoy watching Mayer because he always brings to mind the Caffe Florian in Venice.
But I would definitely say that when I started watching the match at 4-all in the first set, that was already quite a "Shanghai Surprise". But to the comment a @10:41, Rafa was hardly "crushed".
***mayer deserved to win..it was even until tie break nadal was 4-2 up and lost the set, then was swept away more or less in second.
Posted by Bobbio 10/13/2011 at 10:08 AM
"Rafa's stuggling, but look at the end of the year: Davis cup-Spain wins,
Paris-Nadal can recover there and he's a runner up in London. Federer has one title this year and your bashing on Rafa?."
But Rafa is the one who played and lost this match...not Roger.So who should we be discussing?
***what about FART.... federer alltime racquet titan.
Bone-- I think Ed meant that the Dodig match was one Rafa should have won, not this match (though the sentence is a bit vague).
This result is meaningless. Rafa is injured and tired. He shows up at these tournaments for a lot of ungrateful fans when he should be resting. He is the most unselfish player I've seen in ages.
Serve, I think you are confusing me with another Caroline:) but I will answer your questions. I made my wedding plans 30 years ago, it was a lovely day and I'm still happily married to the same husband. I am 100% certain I will never win a Grand Slam title.
TMFunk - nice to 'see' you. MEAT *is* slightly kinky:) I was thinking of my favourite posts of the year recently. Your daughter's won my top prize. !!!!**))))^^^^ or something along those lines, wasn't it. My other favourite was a recent one of Arun's which was *
englishpeter
Final Alltime Racket Titans
Oh and a PS, Serve - I never make fun of or abuse Rafa or his fans or indeed any other players and their fans. I have been a *tennis* fan for a very long time. I admire Rafa and his achievements.
If you want to abuse my favourite player or me ... whatever floats your boat. I won't be reciprocating.
congrats to murray for winning 3 starights titles in asia,he he goes to the end of the season unbeaten
It's interesting that Nadal fans have begun the "chalking" process now that Nadal isn't as dominant anymore, whether he's tired, doesn't do well after the Open, injured, the other player played the best match of his life, etc.
Take a page from Federer fans. It's ok. It happens as players get older and lose the mystique they once had. I'm sure he'll be just fine.
Lastly, the locker room has always know to pound the Rafa bh to get the short ball, it's nothing new. The issue before was to be able to do it throughout the whole match. But as loses keep mounting to the likes of Dodig and Mayer, the other players will have more confidence going in that they have a shot and that's the real issue - much like what has happened to Fed.
Caroline, don't give up hope. I'm still polishing my victory speech for that first major title.
But back on topic. While Rafa has not been as rock solid as we've come to expect, it's probably a mistake to make too much of this loss, or any single loss. One thing I do think is true is that his aura of invincibility has been dented and so he may have to work harder to win some matches than in the past, when opponents may have just decided that it wasn't possible. It now looks possible.
Also, looks like Mayer played outstanding tennis and took advantage of his opportunities. Credit where due.
Dodig and Mayer aren't normally classified as big servers.
It's not like Nadal lost to #300. Mayer is what #15? I was surprised as he is such an unassuming person that he is often overlooked as any kind of threat to the top guys. Hey wait a minute.He is one of the top guys...:))
I don't believe there is a "greatest of all time"...there may be the most successful, the most determined..the most consistent but the greatest is arguable....it is all relative to the players on tour and the generation
Jimmy conners has 106 titles Roger has 67? does that make him greater..could be argued but wont cause Roger has 16 slams.....Rafa has only 10 so far but is the only player in the game to win six tournaments in a row..and his wins over federer are 18-9..does that make him greater?
Its all nonsense...they are all accomplished athletes...I only wish I had tenth of the talent and drive to be that successful
Year-end fatigue, personal family problems, court not suitable for play, likely to get injury if he shows his class, getting older, opponents know how to tackle the once feared player - these are some of the problems that are constantly nagging the present world number 2 Player - Rafael Nadal.
For the new generation of players, coaches are there to enable them to show the weakness of the popular and leading players in Tennis.
Time is coming when the King of Clay Court will slowly show signs of his weakness and fade away - like so many great players in the past.
After all, one cannot expect a player to win all the matches and remain unconquered in Tennis for ever during his playing days.
Sooner or later, a day will come when a top ranking player has to say adieu and let the younger generation to hold the center stage attraction.
ON a further note about Rafas performance.....I'm a fan but the writing was on the wall from the beginning......Rafas serve has deserted him all year..and it started very early on in the match...its needs to become a priority now...and a weapon....and his return of serve in this match was horrendous....if he didn't float it back short them he hit into the net.....Florian was good but by no means overwhelming....Rafa was in the lead 4-2 in the tiebreak and lost his serve twice on crucial points
Rafa had many chance in the first and second set when the it was love-30 with florian serving and then he would make errors again and again and hand the game back to mayer....Rafa handled Raonic who was a bigger server in tokyo..............but Kudos to Mayer who mixed it up and ultimately frustrate Rafa...and I noticed he.also he has taken a page from the Novak/Andy book
and pounded his forehand consistently to Rafas until he wore it out
I don't agree with the others that this is a typical end of year loss after watching the match...and even Nadal said "this was a tough loss" for him....the answer is clear that..it wasn't that he was tired or worn out..it was simply that he didn't capitalize and made lots of errors..and was beaten by a more aggressive player.....essentially he didn't have the answers for Mayers game...I think Mayers was good but not great..it was Rafas to lose and he did......I believe Rafa should go back into training and rest til the world finals...he doesn't have any more points to defend..take a rest!!
Isnt it inevitable that the person who was great at one time succumbs down to new people and fades away! but that still doesnt take away the fact that Nadal is a great warrior and will definitely bounce back!
I read this article on myth of invincibilty and as we have seen in case of Nadal too that no one can remain invincible be it Sampras, Federer or Nadal!
Here enjoy and read:http://bit.ly/nQAplv
jimmy connors won lots of tiny tournaments and not enough majors, so thats that.
Rafa is the greatest, he can cast some pearls.
Fernando is Fernado no? LOL. If Rafa gets tired now at 25 years old (his prime) after the USOPEN every year, man I don't want to see his matches during the same time later on in his career. He will be bullied even worst than today. I mean it will be very embarrasing. I'm hoping not because it's always hard to see a great champ get beaten badly.
Look I think there are a couple of things that explain Rafa's recent losses. First, joker has figured out and showed everyone how to beat him. Second, now that everyone's got the joker's playbook, Rafa is under more pressure more often... i.e. opponents don't give him as many unforced errors as he used to get before so he is having to work harder. Third, Rafa is trying to make adjustments to his game so he is making more unforced errors than he used to; Rafa is trying to hit flatter more penetrating and agressive shots. I believe it is right in trying to be more agressive becasue if he doesn't, he will continue to slip in the rankings, especially as he gets older and is more even physically with his opponents. Rafa's game is soooo physical that he just won't cut it whenever he is not physically superior to his opponents. It is a good thing he is trying to make adjustments to his game now so he can last longer at the top of the rankings.
I wonder when tennis writers will finally let go of this narrative that Nadal is invincible and any upset has more to do with his lack of form than the opponent's great play. Of course, this might bring into question Nadal's overall competence on hard courts, and no one wants that kind of heresy over here, right? Also, Ed, I am pretty sure it's your job to know that Mayer was #15 seed.
Congrats to Florian on the biggest win of his career. He showed amazing class today!
Congratulations to Mayer ! It is not that easy to win the last points when you play against a top seed as Nadal ! Mayer did it : cheers to him ! Good also to see volley-serve coming back with him, reminding Pete Sampras way of playing ! One day, a post-Rafa/Roger time will come and may be serve/volley will come back, at least on hard court and grass. Shangaï shows there are many talents in the top 50 ; good news for tennis ! A final remark : what a nice way of ending a match, a large smile and a good shake-hand to one's opponent with no shouting and any fuss ! Thanks Florian !
The man makes errors and at crticial times at that. It is true that Novak has gotten to him and his confidence isn't all there until he beat Novak. It will happen IMO and when it does he'll be playing better. It is good if he is trying to change his game,hit flatter balls and not too many shorter ones but he'll will be losing some matches as he goes through those adjustments.
Rafa is mentally broken because of Djokovic. This is where Rafa and Roger are different. Roger has the all-time record of slams, 5 year end titles, 237 cons. weeks #1, 285 total weeks #1, and numerous other records. These stats dull the pain of all Federer losses and unfortunaltely Rafa still has much left to prove and that makes his losses much more meaningful. Roger Federer knows he is the GOAT even though he would never say it (he believes it!), and that is why it seems like losses roll off his back.
MEAT, FART, TMF, Fed Express, Maestro... they're all good :)
Oh and Fernado is my hero! LOL!!! He's funny
***why does rafa seem a bit thick when managing his schedule...he always plays more matches than others, he never seems to lighten his tournament load.
Rafa has won more matches this year than any other ATP player --- yes, the guy is really a mess...
"Rafa has only 10 so far but is the only player in the game to win six tournaments in a row"
Not sure what this comment is referring to. Rafa hasn't won 6 slams in a row, nor has he won RG 6 times in a row. And if you just mean 6 tournametns in a row, Djokovic won 8 in a row this year as I recall - Australian Open, Dubai & Doha, IW & Miami, Belgrade, Madrid and Rome.
Rafa keep your focus, its just a glitch, you still have it, no one doubts that!
***eh ?...federer won dubai before aust open.
Posted by Tim (Karma King, My Posts Pack Power!)all these justifications for another dismal Moonpie loss and the spin is like watching a spokesperson for a politician after they make a gaffe ... hilarious!
its so obvious now the GOATness of Federer, for he could never ever lose a match without a huge fuss, and headlines of decline ... Rafa's losses being ignored or justified or dismissed speaks volumes ...
i LOVE the MEAT idea Carolyn, in that standard, Fed is by far the GOAT lol ... i can barely watch 10 minutes these days without getting bored, sans the third set of Murray's final, which was fun to watch, so rare to see ...
Nadal shall have a very hard task ahead if he expects to win 6 more majors. This competition is catching up to him quickly. Now that Djokovic has made the outline to winning against Nadal, expect the field to exploit him until he make significant adjustments. I know he and Toni say it is just minor changes that are needed, but lets get real here, his problems are more than just confidence issues at the moment. One thing that has to be improved is his serve and the depth of his groundstrokes. No way will he be getting away with just spinning the serve in at high percentages against the top players anymore, especially like he does on clay. He also gives away too much ground on his groundstrokes. Even with his incredible amount of topspin, a ball landing at the service line or a little further will put him in a defensive situation that is insurmountable against Djokovic and Murray who have the ability to hurt you on both wings. He just tends to have one laps in a rally where the ball is just hit too short in the court.
Rafa will find a way to come back! He is too good not to! He is also the smartest player out there, look how he figured how to play on all the surfaces. To hae 10 Grand Slams by the age of 25 is incredible! Vamos Rafa!
I see some excuses for Nadal being ´tired`, but if so, He flew to mexico(?) for an exhibition match between 2 tournaments. And he has been complaining against the schedule of ATP tournaments???? Face it: he´s done and after losing the #1 spot to Djokovic, he fell apart....
Posted by Tim (Karma King, My Posts Pack Power!)lets dig for those excuses ... i like the 'tired' one the best ..
A year to forget? The guy has played ten finals, including 3 in the slams.
As I expected, here we have the old buzzards on roadkill scenario. Honestly, how can some of you posters call yourselves tennis fans?
To my friends here - Greetings from Nizhny Novgorod!
geez richard, are Yankees fans NOT baseball fans because they like to see the Red Sox go down?? geez ...
@ atptennis2012 I somewhat agree with you. Federer has the best self-belief. And, as Nole and Rafa have illustrated this year, self-belief is a huge part of tennis. Fed still thinks he can get gold at Wimbledon in singles. At times I think he's almost delusional, but hey, it's worked for him thus far. I disagree with the GOAT thing, though. I love the MEAT thing, but "All Time" is a strong statement, especially if people are basing this off of Grand Slam titles. I'm certain unless the world or tennis as we know it ends, someone will surpass 16 GS titles. If it's during all of the Fed fans' lifetimes, this is surely going to sting and make their biggest GOAT argument null and void. So... everyone should appreciate their favorites but not get too hung up on the GS count. Especially how in the past nobody even bothered to go to AO and WTT caused people like Borg(!) to skip the FO. Times are different - the measurements are slightly different.
Tim
sssssssss why don't you say that about Fedex than he even didn't want to play in Asia?
rafa did win a major, two masters series and is in wtf and davis cup final...hardly decline of the century.
Tim - Good point, but in that Yankees/Red Sox scene, the buzzards went down, and hard, shortly after the roadkill! Which was worse?
I'm just a crank who enjoys the sport of tennis and can't find anyone amongst the players to root against!
***borg played aust open once, connors twice, mcenroe not till he was 24..the majors were still majors back then so its their fault they didnt play for whatever reason...borg could have done withwinning the u.s open but was runner up 4times..too bad.
I think there is something chronically wrong with Nadal's legs: knees, feet, something.
This is not a fit Nadal, and it shows. He is playing high risk tennis more often these days, and it is a testament to how awesome a player he is that he can still cruise through most rounds at the the slams, and on clay.
But I really can't help feel that he is injured and is hiding it. I see no other reason why he struggles so much to cover ground like he used to.
Fatigue might be what he cites, but I think it is an injury. Caused by his own doing playing the way he did all those years on hard courts -- 15 feet behind the baseline, playing defense almost exclusively.
Still, good for Mayer. It is always good to beat someone like Nadal
To put it in perspective, I am a huge Federer fan, dislike Rafa's game even though it is very effective, and do not like that (as a fan) that Federer has a mental-block/big losing record against Nadal. In some perverse way I feel good when Nadal loses in slams because he cannot get close enough to Federer's tally to get the nod of being the best ever given the huge edge in their H2H rivalry. That edge is not important when it is 10 slams to 16, but becomes impossible to ignore if he gets to 13 or 14 with a few more hard court slams, and Djokovic himself gets to 8 or 9.
Roger didnt played Monte Carlo, Halle, Stockholm, Shanghai.
Novak didnt played Monte Carlo, Queens, China, Shanghai.
Rafa played Monte Carlo, Queens, Tokyo, Shanghai, he really need to be smarter with his schedule, his also playing Davis Cup and exhibitions in Dec, all I can figure is that given that his game its very physical he better played the most he can now that he is in his prime, not a bad strategy.
I told u all didnt I?!!!!! I said that rafa has started losing to any1... & here is the proof!!! Djokovic has exposed weaknesses in his game & people r using them!! Most importantly, players have started believing that rafa is beatable!!!! I say again, rafa now has a huge danger from right handed double handed backhand players!!! D downfall of rafa has begun!!!! Just wait & watch!!!
Nadal has not any injury and fatigue. His legs are OK and from his own words he is physically better then ever
Nadal has a mental/block, too many distractions out of the court and his prodigious mind right now is OFF.
He'll be back so some of you try don't go so fast and so glad, he is 25 years old, planty time to recover his mind and to upset you (his antis) hehe
I agree with Tyler ! Thanks for the analysis, by the way ! More and more players beat Nadal, because Djokovic showed the way and now Nadal fears being beaten. In the long run, on hard court, I think attackers should win, all things being equal. Now Nadal is a defender. His fantastic top spin is not enough any more and he sticks to it. He takes always his time, waiting for his opponent's mistake, but very seldom attacks straight on. It is his style of tennis ! And I don't think he can change that ! Besides his way of playing is physically exhausting and he has been playing for a number of years now. Don't forget also that Toni forced him to be left handed ! How does the body react to that in the long run, I wonder. Of course, he is still a great player and probably the best on clay, with the possible exception of Djokovic. The French Open will tell !
***be a laugh if the fedster n rafa/wafa won no more majors between them.
ep - nadal won fo and then monte carlo, which is a master's in name but non-mandatory, so of somewhat lower status as not all top players have to play. other title was barcelona, which is a 500. all on clay. it's a great year for most players, but a comedown for him.
While it is true that Rafa has often struggled after the USO, it is new that he has lost so many other matches before he even got there. Mostly...but not all...to a guy named Novak. It is hard to see how this portends well.
OTH, tennis, like all sport, is all about a clean slate. Every game, every match, every tournament is a chance to start over. IMO, anyone who writes Nadal off is foolish. He is a great champion and has relative youth, (if not actual tennis mileage), on his side. There is still Bercy and the WTF ahead for him to say nothing of 2012. We gonna see, no?
To Slick, who every time Nadal loses says he is tired and injured because he's invincible when he isn't, i. e., when he wins he's invincible. This is such an absurd argument that I think you must actually dislike Nadal, while pretending to be a fan. (I won't use that silly word "hater".)
Nadal did have an excellent period of all court greatness, but basically he's always been a clay court specialist who was also outstanding on grass too. To me he's the GOAT on clay. I think that is how he will be seen by history, and surely that's enough to keep anyone happy?
I agree with you Corrie. But I also really believe that Nadal is injured. And it is not an excuse for losing. I am not even a huge fan, even if I recognize him as a great player. I much rather watch Delpo or Tsonga than Nadal, for instance.
a fully fit and rested nadal who isn't playing indoors or after the us open or against djokovic, always wins
***nadal might retire like borg at 25, last major the french, last final u.s open for both...almost exactly same age june56 / june86... then again "i play always with high motivation and humble illusion no ?."
***nadal should stay with the purple garb...power to the purple.
Nadal should do the following if he has to win matches
a) Limit the number of matches he plays in a calender year
b) Have more self-belief in his shots on hard-courts
c) Flatten the shots more than going for top-spin shots close to the service box allowing the opponent to more forward
d) Change from defensive to offensive more often and do it while flattening the shots than going for the spin on the base or side lines giving less room for the opponents to respond.
e) Biggest thing is the Serve. He has to improve a lot on his serve if he wants to get some free points.
f) He is sweating a lot more than last year. two games into the match, he is already sweating.. too much tennis has taken a toll on him.
All Rafa needs is the magic 10mph grip change on his serve and everything will be back to normal?
Am I the only the one that thinks that an early loss will do Nadal some good? I know hes a guy that likes rythym and confidence but between IW and the Us open this year he only failed to make the final in 3 tournaments and one of those was queens.
I think he needs this time to rest and train hard for a change. I know he likes to keep playing mathces but if he's going to improve his serve or sharpen up his return of serve then he needs to get knocked out of tournaments early to have more time to do so.
Also, I know Bodo keeps banging on about tis with Fed but it is also true that for Nadal everything he adds right now is a bonus, he's won everything there is to win on all surfaces, and is only the secnd man to ever win at least 2 slams on each surface (Wilander was the other). He's also made it to double figures which not many have done.
My point is that he need not be some machine at the moment and dominate every tournamnt but everything he wins, or has won since the us open last year, is a bonus to his illustrious career.
***the good news with rafa losing is that he dosnt get destroyed by murray again.
***rafa is gonna be fine..the balloons are his to gawp at.
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